05 December, 2008

The Trinity Eternity Past to Eternity Future

I highly recommend this DVD set. It is chocked full of excellent teaching that Glorifies our Holy and Sovereign God.

My friend, Cheryl Schatz of MM Outreach, has an apologetics ministry to the Jehovah's Witnesses and recognized the subtle false teaching on the eternal Deity of Jesus Christ coming from some mainstream evangelical leaders.


HenningSam said...

Interesting! I took at class with Dr. Bruce Ware on the Trinity and read his book, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The video is addressing some of the questions I had when taking the class. I asked Dr. Ware if Jesus knew the date and time of the second coming, now that He was in Heaven, because when Jesus was on earth He said only the Father knew. He said that because Jesus was subordinate to the Father it was possible that He still did not know. I was puzzled by this because I thought Jesus was all knowing and had the same attributes as the Father eternally.
Anyway, I'm still learning but I was challenged and interested in the video partly because I work with some Jehovah Witnesses and they are at times open to discussion of the Bible. Thanks for the blog.

ezekiel said...


You would agree more, I think with Spurgeon.


This teaching of the Son being subordinate to the Father needs to be highly qualified and explained. Something that the folks that use it today, fail to do. If you study what Spurgeon says in his commentary on the Nicene Creed you will understand why your discernment bell wrang when Ware used it the way he did.

Lin said...

HenningSam, My friend, Cheryl, has an outreach ministry to JW's and Mormons. Because of their view of Jesus, her discernment bell rang when she first heard this teaching on ESS in mainstream Christian circles. If you listen to her DVD and the quotes from Ware you will be astonished at what he is teaching about Jesus Christ.

Many make the mistake of teleporting verses about Jesus' Incarnation to eternity past and future. Unfortuantly, there is a reason why some are doing this. It is to prove inherent parallel hierarchies on earth. The view is that men represent God and women represent Jesus (because he is subordinate). They are teaching a definite chain of command structure in the Trinity for eternity past and future. This only lessens Jesus Christ and His deity. As if He is some 'lesser' God.

The confusion comes because Ware and others declare upfront that Jesus is God. Then they qualify that by making Him subordinate in enternity past and future. How can the Trinity have the same united will if there is a chain of command? If Jesus was subordinate in eternity past how come He could 'humble Himself' to become a man? (Phil)

Cheryl and Lorri have done their homework on this DVD. They use only scripture. Unlike many who use early church fathers' quotes to try and prove a chain of command. Giles found many of their quotes from Augustine and others were even edited!

Just a tidbit of teaching from the video which is very enlightening. They show from scripture where Jesus says He will raise Himself from the Dead. Another scripture where it says the Holy Spirit will raise Him for the Dead and then another that says God the Father raised Him from the dead.

There is much more but we see from this ONE example a united will, equal in power and authority.

If you get this DVD series, which I recomend, get your bible and a notebook. It is chocked full. I have been researching everything she teaches in context. But, I know that Cheryl is meticulous and is only interested in truth.

Blessings. May His Name be exhalted!

Lin said...

Ez, Thanks for the link. I shudder when I think of what the ESS folks do with this verse. And this is only one of many that kill their view that Jesus is eternally subordinate... past and future:

Isaiah 9

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.