27 September, 2008

John Piper, Paul Tripp, Mark Driscoll and Potty Mouths

This is a promotional video for the Desiring God conference where Mark Driscoll, the reformed vulgarian preacher, will also be speaking about 'words'.

Pulpit Magazine has an excellent article about this. The comments are interesting, too.

Did you know that NOT using bad language could be sacrificing your right to be a redemptive good in someone’s life? I never knew that cussing could edify someone.

But that is what Paul Tripp is teaching here. He has to ignore a lot of scripture to come up with that one.

38 comments:

Richard D said...

Lin - I was shocked and very disappointed to find another video put out by Desiring God Ministries that featured Paul Tripp using the "S" word over and over again. I think this is a side affect of the Emergent Movement that has infected Piper's ministry through his association with Mark Driscoll. It's a shame.

Lin said...

I find it hard to believe that the man who wrote the most brilliant book on Justification has come to this point.

But, there has been a progression:

First it was "Christian Hedonism" which we all thought was no big deal.

Then it was his fascination with Driscoll having him teach (and cuss) at past conferences. (Driscoll repents and then does it again, repents and does it again, etc. It is not only his cussing but his language in describing Jesus Christ and his preoccupation with discussing details about sex from the pulpit)

Then Piper cussed from the pulpit to be shocking

Then his sermon with CJ Mahaney on the 'Scream of the Damned' at the Revolve conference saying that Jesus was 'damned' on the cross. (which I see as blasphemy not simple semantics) He is trying too hard to be a shock jock preacher these days.

Now this on a PROMO video for the conference.

I have a dear friend who just left Noblitt's church in Muscles Shoals because it became all Piper all the time from them. (This is the church where Paul Washer houses Heart Cry) They absolutely adore Piper there and promote him quite a bit. She saw the handwriting on the wall because she has been concerned for quite a while about Piper/Driscoll.

It just makes no sense. Driscoll may have 'correct doctrine' (I don't agree with that totally) but he claims that he studies up and the Holy Spirit gives him his words when he preaches. The Holy Spirit has him to say such vile things about our Lord? The way he describes Jesus is downright insulting to His Soveriegnty.

If you have not read Steve Camp's blog on this, you should because Josh Harris deleted a bunch of comments about this when he put some of Driscolls sermon notes on his blog:

http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2008/09/guardian-of-grunge-and-seattle-sludge.html

People need to know and really think this through. Would such things that Driscoll says really come from our Lord? He seems to 'cycle' being very vulger in describing Jesus Christ and other biblical situations, cussing, being harsh, then repenting, then becoming even worse! I have been following this drama for several years.

Also read the article/comments on pulpit mag about this. There are some interesting quotes from Piper from years back about vulgar speech when he was rebuking Doug Wilson. So what happened to Piper?

http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/09/17/john-piper-mark-driscoll-and-harsh-language/

Clellie said...

Lin - I listened and beyond the fact that vulgar language is considered "vulgar" by a society because it is offensive and therefore really could not ever be used in an "uplifting, grace-endowing" manner, I was thinking to myself, "huh?"

This was one of the most convoluted, elaborate, tortuous (and since we're focusing on words), daedalian justifications of being vulgar that I've heard. This is the type of argumentation one gets from a teenager who is trying to show his parents how smart he is as he tries to get out of trouble.

Sigh. . .

Lin said...

"This was one of the most convoluted, elaborate, tortuous (and since we're focusing on words), daedalian justifications of being vulgar that I've heard."

I agree even though I had to look up daedalian. You go, girl. :o)

Richard D said...

I remembered Daedalus, but I couldn't remember who he was so I had to look him up. If Icarus' father is this quickly forgotten, my dad's got no chance.

Clellie said...

Lin,
I used a thesaurus. Grin Grin.
But it is a cool word.

Scott said...

People like this twist "the Bible" (did you notice how he used that phrase, "the Bible says...") to make their own culture relevant.

I had Piper's book on so-called Christian hedonism. I couldn't read it! It was drivel.

These people who think they preach the gospel and have these wonderfully influential ministries give true preachers a bad name. It is nauseating.

Lin said...

"I had Piper's book on so-called Christian hedonism. I couldn't read it! It was drivel."

I was new to reformed theology when I first heard about 'Christian hedonism' from Piper in a sermon. I did not read the book but I know that I just did not have the discernment at the time to see it was an oxymoron.


If you all did not see Driscolls presentation on the 'cutting edge' at the conference, I recommend watching it. He says some right thing but for the wrong reasons. There is an anger there...an arrogance that is alarming considering how popular he is.

Richard D said...

I have to disagree with Scott on this. I read Desiring God and it had a affect of causing me to consider carefully many biblical teachings that I had begun to take for granted. I was impacted strongly by that book and the affect of it was that it pointed me to scripture and encouraged in me a strong desire to study the Word deeply and to dig for the truth.

I believe John Piper to be a good man with outstanding character. I think he is an outstanding pastor as well as a gifted and eloquent speaker and expositor. He is a man, however, and therefore prone to error - just like the rest of us.

Richard D said...

Lin - the obvious oxymoron in that title was intended to make people pay attention. The definition of hedonism as seeking personal pleasure actually is an accurate description of what Piper is presenting. And it is a biblical presentation. God made us the seekers of pleasure that we are. Piper's point is that it is not the seeking of pleasure that is wrong but what we strive after in order to gain that pleasure (because all of us clearly strive after pleasure).

If we pursue God because it gives us pleasure to do so, that is clearly a biblical thing and a good thing. If we pursue anything other than God for pleasure, it is a bad thing. So the book is saying that there is typical hedonism, which is clearly bad, and there is Christian hedonism, which is good.

I agree completely and have not seen yet an argument that is able to biblically say that Piper's Christian hedonism is wrong.

Lin said...

Rich, It is not really that...it is the changing the meaning of words. Like 'damned' instead of 'cursed' for what happened on the Cross that Piper and Mahaney did. It is confusing and it is done to be shocking and to get people's attention, I understand that. But it also sends wrong messages. That is why I said I missed it with Christian Hedonism. While we can make a case for Christian Hedonism, look where that 'shock jock' thinking has brought us with Piper...Driscoll, who is vulgar not only in cussing but in how he even describes our precious Lord. Piper promotes this guy. Driscoll repents and then gets worse.

That is why I said to watch his presentation at the conference. There is an anger there...a 'how dare you rebuke ME' attitude that is unbecoming a minister. I think Driscoll should get out of the ministry.

Scott said...

In regards to Piper...

Richard, I'm glad you found it useful. In comparison to other works by Piper it failed miserably -- especially after having heard Piper preach in person. You just prove to me that God uses a great deal to encourage His elect. (this paragraph should be read as being positive toward Richard).

In regards to unworthy preachers...

What is particularly distressing about this type of grandstanding, er, preaching is that there are almost countless preachers that preach the gospel that are drowned out by the cacophony of poorly derived sermons and the ministries perpetrated by these "preachers."

Case in point is the man who charged with pastoring my own church. I can't for the life of me understand how he can preach without bringing the gospel. Yet he does so week after week while others that do preach the gospel can't find a pulpit among the myriads of pastor-less churches. Maybe the American social clubs, er, churches are getting what they want/deserve.

Richard D said...

Lin - I am strongly opposed to redefining words. And I didn't like Piper's "damned on the cross" comment. But I really don't think he redefined the word "hedonism." He used the proper current definition of it and showed why it is something that can be seen in God's structure for the relational nature of Jesus Christ to his Church.

Scott - I agree about your idea of the Evangelical Church being cursed. I think that at the very least, the American Evangelical churches are currently under God's discipline.

But I think Piper actually presents the gospel quite clearly on a regular basis. Although he may get some things wrong, I believe he is trying to point people to Christ in a biblical way.

Piper's involvement with Driscoll has been, in my opinion, very bad for Piper and for Piper's followers. I agree, Lin, that Driscoll should get out of the ministry. Someone who must continually repent of the same thing over and over again is obviously "continuing in sin," and that is is problem that should raise great big red flags when the person in question is a pastor.

I guess my concern in this regard is that the Evangelical community police its own, but with appropriate priorities. There are "Evangelical" preachers out there who are doing far worse things than John Piper. Mark Driscoll, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and Max Lucado spring to mind.

I think what needs to happen with Piper is tha someone like John McArthur or R.C. Sproul or another pastor who Piper respects should counsel him privately. And this is happening as we speak - with both of the people I just mentioned. I don't know the details, but I know that both of them have gone to Piper with concerns. I don't think the things Piper is doing rise high enough on the radar screen to get the people in the pews concerned. The better target for their angst might be Jeremiah Wright or Ergun Caner.

Lin said...

Richard, thanks for sharing all that. I have been reading your blog for a while and know that you are definitly my brother in Christ and I really appreciate your defense of the gospel on other blogs.

We have the same exact concerns. :o) I am not so sure that Sproul is the best source to rebuke Piper considering the problems with Ligoneir a few years back, the lawsuit, etc. But I know many still respect him.

I think the problem is even deeper than all of these people. We are doing it to ourseleves by raising these men up on pedestals, making them famous and wealthy. It is very hard to truly repent when you have so much to lose and it is so public.

I guess I missed all the hullaballoo about Ergun Caner. I have enjoyed his presentations on how to witness to Muslims. Beyond that, I have not ventured.

Richard D said...

Lin - Thanks. and I think Scott was right about God being able to use less than perfect vessels for his use. "His strength is made perfect in weakness," He uses the "foolish things to confound the wise." And praise God for that because I am certainly less than any of the people we have mentioned here.

I'd add John McArthur to the list of ministers who have had problems. I mentioned the two of them because I know that they are freinds of Piper's and have approached him with concerns about the way he presents things.

Regarding Ergun Caner - I must say LOL!!!! I live about four miles from Liberty University and Seminary. Ergun is a big and prominent person here. I've heard him in sermons refer to his minivan as his "castration van" and talk about how now that he's married and drives his "castration van" the women don't realize what a stud he is, "to the detriment of future generations."

He also has gone on multiple major tirades against Reformed theology, even going so far as to say that Calvinists are worse than Muslim terrorists and that anyone who believes in the Doctrines of Grace is a heretic and is under the anathema of God.

I think he's a greater danger to Evangelicalism than Piper, Sproul, McArthur, James McDonald, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, and Bill Hybels put together. Although I may be somewhat biased in this regard since I live near him.

Lin said...

castration van? Oh my. I say I have missed out. I have only heard him speak about Muslims and the Koran. I figure he knows a bit of what he is talking about on that subject.

I know that James White wanted to debate him and it never came off.

While I believe in DoG, I believe the reformed movement has gone off the road quite a bit. I have decided to not be a part of any movement or group...except maybe Christian, American and female. :o)

Richard D said...

I was one of the local promoters for that debate. I was in contact with James White and was working with our pastor (who teaches Greek in Liberty's pastoral studies program) to have James preach at our church the Sunday after the debate.

When things got particularly bad surrounding that debate, our pastor had to publish an article on our church web site distancing himself from the whole thing. It was very sad that things deteriorated so terribly so quickly.

And, yes, the term "castration van" was spoken from the Thomas Road Baptist Church pulpit. Yikes.

Scott said...

Richard said: "I think Piper actually presents the gospel quite clearly on a regular basis. Although he may get some things wrong, I believe he is trying to point people to Christ in a biblical way."

I agree. He would be better off distancing himself and his ministry from the likes of Driscoll, Tripp, and that entire ilk.

Aaron Camp said...

wow...some serious scholarship going on here!

Do you have any counter-arguments to offer or do you just like to slander great preachers? What a waste of time.

It would be helpful to address:

1. What is "cussing"? Which words will you permit and which words (in and of themselves) are evil? Is this a social construct or does God prohibit certain words apart from obvious blasphemy or using his name in vain?

2. If the problem is "vulgarity" by whose standards of vulgarity should we criticize these Pastors? For instance...in midwest farming communities, shit is used in reference to manure in common everyday appropriate work language...in many suburban and urban surroundings where manure is not commonly used the word "shit" is used in a representative way of saying something is worth the same as manure. I would hold that neither case is wrong, but would you at least admit that the context in which words are used can make them appropriate?

3. Lastly, how do you feel about Jesus and Paul using strong language? Jesus uses some very harsh terms to describe the Pharisees and likewise Paul uses very strong language for those in opposition to him. Do you reject the Bible for it's use of explicit and string language as well? The Bible tells of genocide, rape and sexual imagery IN DETAIL. Is this not crude?

None of you have really offered any arguments in favor of your criticisms of these men of God, so I'll be glad to give you a starting point...

If you cannot offer any biblical arguments up, I would ask that you stop slander and gossip and rather pray for the leaders of Christ's Church that you disagree with in a respectful way.

Lin said...

Hi Aaron, I have heard every single point you make ad nauseum. They still ring pretty hollow against the entire pericope.

So, I guess I have to ask you where you see Jesus Christ using foul language all the time. Paul?

Did they use shock jock language and drama all the time?

Everyone is so busy defending their favorite 'great' preachers...

Follow Christ...not man. It is harder but worth it.

Aaron Camp said...

Lin,

Thanks for responding, but to be honest it's not the response I was looking for. I would be more than willing to answer your questions, but for the sake of clarity in this discussion I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions. Just because you've heard my objections (ad nauseum as you put it) does not mean they can be flat out disregarded...they deserve to be answered.

I'm rather offended that you would suggest that my core purpose of defending these men of God is because I follow men and not Christ. That's a pretty serious charge to any believer, and I would hope you would choose your words more wisely.

Lin said...

Hi Aaron, I am not looking for a debate on this. I spent a year debating it all over the place. I refer you back to my first comment in this thread and the links therein if you are interested.

I guess you will have to think me a prude. But when I have to quickly shut down a video or sermon when my kid is in the room because the "pastor" is cussing or vulgar or referring to my Savior as a redneck, things are out of control.

William Booth - said...

I watched this video once by myself and once more with my wife. I believe the negative views concerning this video are a result of "missing the point" of Tripp's message. I ask you to listen again. Any word can be ungodly and inappropriate when used to be unedifying. A cultural "bad word" is only bad within that culture and in the way its intended to be understood. For instance, be prepared to repent if you go to Australia and give the "peace" symbol. Here in America its welcomed but you have just given a finger gesture that is much worse to an Austrian as the "middle" finger. IT IS ALL ABOUT INTENT!!!! We all must be careful and avoid legalism and a religious spirit. We need to rest in God's Grace of redemption in the past, future, but also the immediate present, glorify God in all we do, including our words is what's important. In the love of Christ Jesus

Lin said...

"I watched this video once by myself and once more with my wife. I believe the negative views concerning this video are a result of "missing the point" of Tripp's message. I ask you to listen again. Any word can be ungodly and inappropriate when used to be unedifying. A cultural "bad word" is only bad within that culture and in the way its intended to be understood."

I suppose I assumed too quickly that Tripp would know they were bad words in his culture.

What point did I miss? That it is never expected to grow spiritually past the need to express ourselves with vulgar language?


" For instance, be prepared to repent if you go to Australia and give the "peace" symbol. Here in America its welcomed but you have just given a finger gesture that is much worse to an Austrian as the "middle" finger."

Would Tripp's language be considered cuss words in Austrailia?


" IT IS ALL ABOUT INTENT!!!!"

Actually, it is not. None of us can judge motives. But we can see and hear 'deeds' as in behavior. Scripture speaks to deeds quite often.

Tripp meant to shock jock us. Many are doing it in pulpits all over the US. It is quite the "in thing". Is it really necessary?

" We all must be careful and avoid legalism and a religious spirit. "

Or, we could just avoid Tripp videos when our youngsters are in the room. :o) Is that "legalistic"? Or, how would you explain to a 7 year old the BIBLE teacher and counselor was only using the bad words to make a point? Isn't the point not to say them at all? I am amazed that basic civility and manners toward our fellowman is now considered legalistic.

I know Athiests who refuse to cuss because it shows a ahallow mind.

"We need to rest in God's Grace of redemption in the past, future, but also the immediate present, glorify God in all we do, including our words is what's important. In the love of Christ Jesus"

I could not agree more. Now, how was Tripp's using these words to promote a Christian conference doing that?

I would not mind so much except that he is a well known Christian teacher and counselor that many young minds full of mush will seek to emulate.

William Booth - said...

I guess what I took from Tripp's message was that the "S" word is usually wrong, within normal context, and so are any and ALL other words that are deemed appropriate but may be used in an unedifying way. I do not think Tripp is condoning walking around cussing up a storm. Rather, I get his point... the "S" word could be appropriate and not sinful in a farming community in which farmers are raised with that word as "normal" for laying down cow menuer. Maybe it could be better stated like this: eating meat in and of itself is not a sin but if it causes you brother to stumble, we should avoid eating meat under that condition. 1 Corinthians 10-- Believer’s Freedom

23 “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.” 27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience’— 29 the other man’s conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

His message to his own children is that the "S" word should not be used only on the basis of being rude or vulgar but also that we should watch ALL of our words, the good words too. That was his point. I am only defending Tripp's intention in his message and cannot comment on Driscoll or Piper.

In Love and to the Glory of God Alone

William Booth - said...

Here are some more comments to consider:

1. The title and the beginning green-screen disclaimer alone should be enough for any listening adult to know to censor this video when in the presence of little children.

2. How many times have we all gone to a movie theater or rented a movie, perhaps completely alone and heard minor or major cussing and God's name used in vain on the screen AND continued to sit through the rest of the movie. If so, we too are sinful and are just as guilty as if we said those words ourselves.

3. 1 Corinthians 10, in essence, states that we should refrain from anything that would make our brother stumble or cause an unbeliever to not receive the gospel, our lives being a witness or testimony of the work that the Lord has done in and through us. In my opinion, Tripp's use of the "S" word in this video did not cross that line.

4. As the dear puritan, John Bunyan said, “The best prayer I ever prayed had enough sin in it to damn the whole world.” We are not found righteous in God's eyes on what we do or don't do but rather who Christ is. This is what grace is all about. It is not a license or FREE pass to willingly sin. Rather, as we sin and continually sin throughout a day we are still seen by the Father as "cloaked in His righteousness" and remain justified by the blood of the Lamb. How beautiful!!! I am afraid that we sinful humans point our fingers too easily at each other. Are view and expectations of each other is way too high and our view of God and trust in His saving work is way too low. I am not a sinner because I sin... I sin because I am a sinner. In the double negative, I cannot not Sin.

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of non effect." —John Owen 1616-1683 Famous Puritan Theologian

5. Our thoughts on these men have no bearing on how God seems them. They will fail us. They will be incorrect in their theology from time to time. They will blow up with their own children. They will even curse when they hit their thumb with a hammer... and so will all of us. Let's give each other the grace that God gives us. We remain secure in Him by the work at the cross. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36. Our hearts gravitate towards "works-righteousness" and condemning each other in self-righteousness.

My suggestion is to RELAX and enjoy the gift of salvation. God's covenant with us is not conditional. The sanctification process is long and hard. We are justified on Christ's merits not our own.

I think we have blown this "What Makes Bad Language Bad?" video way out of proportion and have missed the point that he was trying to make. Perhaps, he needed to use a different word, such as poop. But then again, someone out their would be offended over the word poop.

William Booth - said...

Here are some more comments to consider:

1. The title and the beginning green-screen disclaimer alone should be enough for any listening adult to know to censor this video when in the presence of little children.

2. How many times have we all gone to a movie theater or rented a movie, perhaps completely alone and heard minor or major cussing and God's name used in vain on the screen AND continued to sit through the rest of the movie. If so, we too are sinful and are just as guilty as if we said those words ourselves.

3. 1 Corinthians 10, in essence, states that we should refrain from anything that would make our brother stumble or cause an unbeliever to not receive the gospel, our lives being a witness or testimony of the work that the Lord has done in and through us. In my opinion, Tripp's use of the "S" word in this video did not cross that line.

4. As the dear puritan, John Bunyan said, “The best prayer I ever prayed had enough sin in it to damn the whole world.” We are not found righteous in God's eyes on what we do or don't do but rather who Christ is. This is what grace is all about. It is not a license or FREE pass to willingly sin. Rather, as we sin and continually sin throughout a day we are still seen by the Father as "cloaked in His righteousness" and remain justified by the blood of the Lamb. How beautiful!!! I am afraid that we sinful humans point our fingers too easily at each other. Are view and expectations of each other is way too high and our view of God and trust in His saving work is way too low. I am not a sinner because I sin... I sin because I am a sinner. In the double negative, I cannot not Sin.

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of non effect." —John Owen 1616-1683 Famous Puritan Theologian

5. Our thoughts on these men have no bearing on how God seems them. They will fail us. They will be incorrect in their theology from time to time. They will blow up with their own children. They will even curse when they hit their thumb with a hammer... and so will all of us. Let's give each other the grace that God gives us. We remain secure in Him by the work at the cross. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36. Our hearts gravitate towards "works-righteousness" and condemning each other in self-righteousness.

My suggestion is to RELAX and enjoy the gift of salvation. God's covenant with us is not conditional. The sanctification process is long and hard. We are justified on Christ's merits not our own.

I think we have blown this "What Makes Bad Language Bad?" video way out of proportion and have missed the point that he was trying to make. Perhaps, he needed to use a different word, such as poop. But then again, someone out their would be offended over the word poop.

William Booth - said...

Here are some more comments to consider:

1. The title and the beginning green-screen disclaimer alone should be enough for any listening adult to know to censor this video from children.

2. How many times have we all gone to a movie theater, perhaps completely alone and heard cussing and God's name used in vain on the screen AND continued to sit through the rest of the movie. If so, we too are sinful and are just as guilty as if we said those words ourselves.

3. 1 Corinthians 10, in essence, states that we should refrain from anything that would make our brother stumble or cause an unbeliever to not receive the gospel, our lives being a witness or testimony of the work that the Lord has done in and through us.

4. As the dear puritan, John Bunyan said, “The best prayer I ever prayed had enough sin in it to damn the whole world.” We ARE NOT found righteous in God's eyes on what we do or don't do but rather who Christ is and done for us. This is what grace is all about. It is not a license to willingly sin. Rather, as we sin we are still seen by the Father as "cloaked in His righteousness" and remain justified by the blood of the Lamb. How beautiful!!! I am afraid that we point our fingers too easily at each other. Our view and expectations of each other is way too high and our view of God and trust in His saving work is way too low. I am not a sinner because I sin... I sin because I am a sinner. In the double negative, I cannot not Sin.

5. Our thoughts on these men have no bearing on how God seems them. They will fail us. They will be incorrect in their theology from time to time. They will blow up with their own children. They will even curse when they hit their thumb with a hammer... and so will all of us. Let's give each other the grace that God gives us. We remain secure in Him by the work at the cross. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36. Our hearts gravitate towards "works-righteousness" and condemning each other in self-righteousness.

My suggestion is to RELAX and enjoy the gift of salvation. God's covenant with us is not conditional. The sanctification process is long and hard. We are justified on Christ's merits not our own.

I think we have blown this "What Makes Bad Language Bad?" video way out of proportion and have missed the point that he was trying to make. Perhaps, he needed to use a different word, such as poop. But then again, someone out their would be offended over the word poop.

William Booth - said...

1. The title and the beginning green-screen disclaimer alone should be enough for any listening adult to know to censor this video from children.

2. How many times have we all gone to a movie theater, perhaps completely alone and heard cussing and God's name used in vain on the screen AND continued to sit through the rest of the movie. If so, we too are sinful and are just as guilty as if we said those words ourselves.

3. 1 Corinthians 10, in essence, states that we should refrain from anything that would make our brother stumble or cause an unbeliever to not receive the gospel, our lives being a witness or testimony of the work that the Lord has done in and through us.

4. As the dear puritan, John Bunyan said, “The best prayer I ever prayed had enough sin in it to damn the whole world.” We ARE NOT found righteous in God's eyes on what we do or don't do but rather who Christ is and done for us. This is what grace is all about. It is not a license to willingly sin. Rather, as we sin we are still seen by the Father as "cloaked in His righteousness" and remain justified by the blood of the Lamb. How beautiful!!! I am afraid that we point our fingers too easily at each other. Our view and expectations of each other is way too high and our view of God and trust in His saving work is way too low. I am not a sinner because I sin... I sin because I am a sinner. In the double negative, I cannot not Sin.

5. Our thoughts on these men have no bearing on how God seems them. They will fail us. They will be incorrect in their theology from time to time. They will blow up with their own children. They will even curse when they hit their thumb with a hammer... and so will all of us. Let's give each other the grace that God gives us. We remain secure in Him by the work at the cross. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36. Our hearts gravitate towards "works-righteousness" and condemning each other in self-righteousness. God's covenant with us is not conditional. The sanctification process is long and hard. We are justified on Christ's merits not our own.

I think we have blown this "What Makes Bad Language Bad?" video way out of proportion and have missed the point that he was trying to make. Perhaps, he needed to use a different word, such as poop. But then again, someone out their would be offended over the word poop.

William Booth - said...

1. The title and the beginning green-screen disclaimer alone should be enough for any listening adult to know to censor this video from children.

2. How many times have we all gone to a movie theater, perhaps completely alone and heard cussing and God's name used in vain on the screen AND continued to sit through the rest of the movie. If so, we too are sinful and are just as guilty as if we said those words ourselves.

3. 1 Corinthians 10, in essence, states that we should refrain from anything that would make our brother stumble or cause an unbeliever to not receive the gospel, our lives being a witness or testimony of the work that the Lord has done in and through us.

4. As the dear puritan, John Bunyan said, “The best prayer I ever prayed had enough sin in it to damn the whole world.” We ARE NOT found righteous in God's eyes on what we do or don't do but rather who Christ is and done for us. This is what grace is all about. It is not a license to willingly sin. Rather, as we sin we are still seen by the Father as "cloaked in His righteousness" and remain justified by the blood of the Lamb. How beautiful!!! I am afraid that we point our fingers too easily at each other. Our view and expectations of each other is way too high and our view of God and trust in His saving work is way too low. I am not a sinner because I sin... I sin because I am a sinner. In the double negative, I cannot not Sin.

5. Our thoughts on these men have no bearing on how God seems them. They will fail us. They will be incorrect in their theology. They will even curse when they hit their thumb with a hammer... and so will all of us. Let's give each other the grace that God gives us. We remain secure in Him by the work at the cross. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36. Our hearts gravitate towards "works-righteousness" and condemning each other in self-righteousness. God's covenant with us is not conditional. The sanctification process is long and hard. We are justified on Christ's merits not our own.

I think we have blown this "What Makes Bad Language Bad?" video way out of proportion and have missed the point that he was trying to make. Perhaps, he needed to use a different word, such as poop. But then again, someone out their would be offended over the word poop.

William Booth - said...

1. The title and the beginning green-screen disclaimer alone should be enough for any listening adult to know to censor this video from children.

2. How many times have we all gone to a movie theater, perhaps completely alone and heard cussing and God's name used in vain on the screen AND continued to sit through the rest of the movie. If so, we too are sinful and are just as guilty as if we said those words ourselves.

3. 1 Corinthians 10, in essence, states that we should refrain from anything that would make our brother stumble or cause an unbeliever to not receive the gospel, our lives being a witness or testimony of the work that the Lord has done in and through us.

4. As the dear puritan, John Bunyan said, “The best prayer I ever prayed had enough sin in it to damn the whole world.” We ARE NOT found righteous in God's eyes on what we do or don't do but rather who Christ is and done for us. This is what grace is all about. It is not a license to willingly sin. Rather, as we sin we are still seen by the Father as "cloaked in His righteousness" and remain justified by the blood of the Lamb. How beautiful!!! I am afraid that we point our fingers too easily at each other. Our view and expectations of each other is way too high and our view of God and trust in His saving work is way too low. I am not a sinner because I sin... I sin because I am a sinner. In the double negative, I cannot not Sin.

5. Our thoughts on these men have no bearing on how God seems them. They will fail us. They will be incorrect in their theology. They will even curse when they hit their thumb with a hammer... and so will all of us. Let's give each other the grace that God gives us. We remain secure in Him by the work at the cross. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36. Our hearts gravitate towards "works-righteousness" and condemning each other in self-righteousness. God's covenant with us is not conditional. The sanctification process is long and hard. We are justified on Christ's merits not our own.

Perhaps, he needed to use a different word, such as poop. But then again, someone out their would be offended over the word poop.

William Booth - said...

1. The title and the beginning green-screen disclaimer alone should be enough for any listening adult to know to censor this video from children.

2. How many times have we all gone to a movie theater, perhaps completely alone and heard cussing and God's name used in vain on the screen AND continued to sit through the rest of the movie. If so, we too are sinful and are just as guilty as if we said those words ourselves.

3. 1 Corinthians 10, in essence, states that we should refrain from anything that would make our brother stumble or cause an unbeliever to not receive the gospel, our lives being a witness or testimony of the work that the Lord has done in and through us.

4. As the dear puritan, John Bunyan said, “The best prayer I ever prayed had enough sin in it to damn the whole world.” We ARE NOT found righteous in God's eyes on what we do or don't do but rather who Christ is and done for us. This is what grace is all about. It is not a license to willingly sin. Rather, as we sin we are still seen by the Father as "cloaked in His righteousness" and remain justified by the blood of the Lamb. How beautiful!!! I am afraid that we point our fingers too easily at each other. Our view and expectations of each other is way too high and our view of God and trust in His saving work is way too low. I am not a sinner because I sin... I sin because I am a sinner. In the double negative, I cannot not Sin.

5. Our thoughts on these men have no bearing on how God seems them. They will fail us. They will be incorrect in their theology. Let's give each other the grace that God gives us. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36. Our hearts gravitate towards "works-righteousness" and condemning each other in self-righteousness. God's covenant with us is not conditional on us. The sanctification process is long and hard. We are justified on Christ's merits alone.

Perhaps, he needed to use a different word, such as poop. But then again, someone out their would be offended over the word poop.

Lin said...

" God's covenant with us is not conditional."

So, no repentance necessary for salvation?

Really William, as to the rest of your apologetics for Bible teachers who shock jock, it seems a bit tortured.

For example, you seem to want to claim that I cannot relax and enjoy my gift of salvation because of this blog post. That is quite a leap.

William Booth - said...

I am very sorry for the repeat posts. I kept getting error messages and then it posted all of them.

One cannot be saved without repentance. You are right! However, even our act of repenting is God's gift to us. I take a Reformed view of salvation. Salvation is entirely God's work, or monergistic. We bring nothing to the table that God can except as good enough. That is why Jesus had to be the sacrifice, not us. I am so glad that God did not offer me to engage in a relationship with him based on a "contract" for I would have broken my side of the contract immediately and God would have been just to terminate the contract from that point on. Rather, God initiated a "covenant" with us. A covenant is one-sided and is made without regard to how the other party is going act or how good they are. God chose Abram and entered into a covenant with him even when he was an idol worshiper. Abram and his descendants (Israel) did nothing on their part to be more favorable than any other people or for God to choose them based on being better than the rest. In our deadness of sin (depravity) God chose to reveal Himself, through the power of the Holy Spirit. He breaths life into us and we respond in repentance, finally realizing our need of Him as our savior. Grace precedes faith not faith precedes grace. Like Abram, I bring nothing to the table for God to choose me. Therefore saving grace is just that... a gift that I do not deserve. This is what I mean by resting in His grace. God does not love me more or less based on my performances. He loved me before the foundations of the Earth -- the end. What comfort!!! Continual repentance is the key in our maturing in Christ. Sanctification takes a life-time but we have nothing to fear in our justification for Jesus is the Lamb. Those who do not repent unto salvation, Jesus is the Lion. We are all accountable for our sins but the sinner is unwilling and unable to be saved without the Father drawing us to Christ.

Lin, I hope you don't feel offended. This next sentence is said in gentle love and adoration... perhaps a pastor using the "S" word in his message is not be as bad as our emotions can be while blogging, this includes ME!!! I believe this is what Tripp was trying to say to us. Thanks for listening. I love all you brothers and sisters of Christ.

Lin said...

William, I do not disgree with your sermonette at all. I believe repentance is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit and I believe it is continuous in a believers life as they grow in Holiness. And that is key...growing in Holiness. NOt feasting on milk but meat.

I am also aware of quite a few uncomfortable passages that many professing believers would like to ignore. Such as Hebrews 10: 26-31 and ALL of 1 John.

When we are saved we are to become NEW CREATIONS. We are no longer like the world.

I guess where I am confused is how you are relating this to Tripp's need to use vulgar language to teach. It simply seems gratuitous. Especially in light of DG's promotion of Driscoll, the SCREAM of the DAMNED and other concerns about Piper. (Who is quite "emotional" :o)

Just a note about "emotions": That is your attempt at ad hominem?

Let me assure you that the most cold blooded Nazi SS officer was acting upon "emotion". There are, however, acceptable and unacceptable cultural expressions of emotion. I am perplexed at what unacceptable expressions of emotion you have found here?

Could it be that you are calling a different opinion than yours simply an "emotional response". Perhaps that, in and of itself, is a bit "emotional"? :o)

William Booth - said...

Lin, Good point. We both agree that we are to reflect the work of God in our lives. We should no longer long for the world or act like the world. Perhaps, Tripp should be more careful next time. Let's also be careful to not discredit all of his teachings over a poor judgment on a singular issue. We should encourage these brothers in Christ and each other to conform to the likeness of Christ and to have our flesh crucified at the cross daily. The flesh does not die easily. You are right... not all emotions are wrong. Christ showed us that when He cleansed the temple, twice not just once. If these men are true believers, which I do believe they are, then the Lord as their Shepard will preserve them and sanctify them. He loves us that much. Thanks for the dialog... May the Lord richly bless you!!!

Lin said...

" We should encourage these brothers in Christ and each other to conform to the likeness of Christ and to have our flesh crucified at the cross daily. The flesh does not die easily"

It is sad this is ever necessary with this with those who make their living from ministry because they are paid to tell US such things. Strange world, indeed.

Anonymous said...

1. http://www.thebereancall.org/search/node/Christian%20Hedonism

and http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/piperpaper.htm

and
http://www.limerickreformed.com/component/k2/item/85-a-critical-examination-of-john-piper%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cchristian-hedonism%E2%80%9D-1
and
http://s3.amazonaws.com/churchplantmedia-cms/free_reformed_church_pompton_plains_nj/10---final-trials-thesis--a-reformed-look-at-christian-hedonism.pdf